Ballentine Broadcast: Conversations on Black Wealth
Hear from Black millionaires and 7+ figure business owners on their wealth-building journeys, experiences working with financial services professionals, and their thoughts on what the financial services industry can do to help close the racial wealth gap.
Ballentine Broadcast: Conversations on Black Wealth
Building Wealth while Serving Low-Income Communities with Saundra Davis
In this episode, Akeiva sits down with Saundra Davis, MSFP, APFC®, FBS®, CSC, Founder of Sage Financial Solutions. We discuss her multi-faceted wealth building journey and candid thoughts on what the financial services industry should be doing to help close the racial wealth gap.
Connect with Saundra:
Financial Fitness Coach Certification: www.sagefinancialsolutions.org
Instagram: @sage.money
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sagemoney
Twitter: https://twitter.com/sagemoney?lang=en
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/saundradavis
Connect with Ballentine Partners:
Website: www.ballentinepartners.com
E-mail: info@ballentinepartners.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/ballentine-partners-llc/
Hello, everyone, and welcome to the show. I'm your host, A Kiva Ellis, and to today I am honoured to have Sandra Davis on this show. Sandra is a U S Navy veteran money mentor speaker, educator and consultant. She is the founder of Sage Financial Solutions, a non profit specializing in financial coach training and education and planning for low wealth and underrepresented communities. Her experience in the U S Navy and her thirty years serving community base organizations drove her to the reality that the best way to help people find a path out of poverty is to help them become their own financial expert. As a trailblazer in the field, she developed and regularly facilitates the financial fitness coach certification program training financial professionals to offer the highest standard for professional services for all people. irrespective of wealth and income. She is a financial behavior specialist and her philosophy of the financial health continuum of care framework continues to shape the financial capability and coaching efforts around the country. an active proponent of building a more inclusive financial planning community, Sadra has served on the Financial Planning Association local and national pro bono and diversity committees. Sajra holds a bachelor's asscience and management, and a Master of science in financial planning from Golden Gate University, where she is a distinguished adjunct professor in the personal financial planning program. In addition, she teaches in personal finance programs at Cal Lutheran and American College. Sandre welcomed you the show.
[saundra_davis]:Thank you so much at so many words,
[akeiva_ellis]:So many, such a resume. I am excited to have you.
[saundra_davis]:so maybe so manys. I am glad to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
[akeiva_ellis]:Yes, I'm glad to have you here. So of course, you have quite the resumes as we just heard as a financial professional and you've also experienced personal financial success as well. You're a business owner and you also have financial assets and real estate, so tell us about your journey. Let's start from the beginning. Was money and finance is something you are exposed to from a young age.
[saundra_davis]:Yes, in all of the worst ways. so Um, my mom was um, a uh, first generation Californian. She moved from New Jersey. Uh, right before I was born, So think back sixty years. Um. and at that time, uh, there were really only certain jobs that black women were doing. you know, um, uh, in Mass. Of course, you know. that's what I'm referring to, So she came to California. Um. She was one of twelve, so she was uh, experiencing poverty on a regular basis, Uh, in in her family of origin, And what that message sent to her is when you need more money, just get another job When you need more money to get another job, Um, spend it while you got it, and when it's gone, get another job. take another gig. do it. you know, she, she was a side hustle, queen, before side hustling was a thing. Um. and so what I learned in the money script that I took away from that is, Um. you can always make more money. Um, and I never really made the connection or the understanding of how many times Mom wasn't there on Christmas Eve because she was working in someone's home for their parties. She
[akeiva_ellis]:Mhm,
[saundra_davis]:wasn't at our family parties because she was working for someone else's parties. Um, I didn't understand the stress that I would see on her. Uh, when money was running low, I didn't. I didn't equate that stress to the fact that I had everything that I could want. Um, I was the young. I am the youngest of of her five children. And so, aside from being the most adorable of the crew, Um, I, you know I was the baby. So you know the baby gets stuff right. And and so by the time I came along, much of the struggle that my my brother's experienced was over. And so we? actually, my mom bought a home when I was um, about nine. I think. um. I do remember the renting, but I remember when she bought the home, and the big deal for me was we were finally living on a street that I could have a bike, and we lived across the street in a mostly white neighborhood. There was one other black family besides us. Um. I was able to walk to school, Um. The neighborhood was safe. it was just I went from, you know, A. A. A. A, not necessarily all the time safe. neighborhood Ti. like real different, Right. And so when I turned fifteen, Um, my mom actually lost her job and Um, sold our home and it changed my life. I went from being a kid who was college bound, Uh, the first in my family in my immediate family to go from you know, high school right onto college. That would have been my reality, Um, and excuse me, and when that changed, Um, when her job was no longer our, Uh, you know, Uh, the way that, the way we made a living, Um, she sold the home. We moved from a five bedroom three storye home into a one bedroom. a studio. Actually, not even one bedroom a studio in Los Angeles. I dropped out of high school. I took my G, E, D, and I joined the navy, Um, and that was Uh, S. supremely traumatic for me. Um, I thought that I would spend twenty years in the navy. It was Um, a safety net for me, so I actually didn't go back to college until I was thirty two, So keep in mind, I still haven't learned anything about money, right I? I'm feeling
[akeiva_ellis]:uh,
[saundra_davis]:the impact. I'm having the experience of money, but I haven't really learned anything yet. At this point, Um, A. And so I got out of the navy, broke with a son. You know, still no real financial understanding and the Navy didn't Back then there was no, You know, you got your check the first and fifteenth. It was gone within ten days, you know, but she knew you had what we. how we affectionately say, You know, you've got three hots and a cot. three hot meals and a place to sleep. And so there was never really, uh, an impetus uh to to create this learning about this evasive money. And I still really didn't even understand what I was doing, you know, and um, then I went to college. I put myself through college. Uh, as a young mom, a young single mom, Um, and I still didn't learn anything about money, you know, I took out student loans for my student loans. I had to spend a lot of money helping my mom. Uh, she was still living at that time, so I was always taking care of more than Sandra. I was always. my financial resources were always for more than Sandra. And so you know, still not learning right. and then at about forty, Um, I was making really good money. I mean, you know, my income was great, but my wealth was was you know, not that way, Right, and um, I was. I had a company that was killing me literally. I was so sick, I was working like crazy, making great money and suffering, really suffering. And so I quit, you know, the the, the client thought I was crazy. Uh, I took a year off. I had no idea what I was going to do and by that time I had partnered with the the person I'm with now, Uh, twenty years ago. now, Um, and he was teaching me how to trade stocks, and uh, it was fun. I liked learning, but I didn't have the stomach for it. You know I, I'm I'm all cool
[akeiva_ellis]:Mhm, Mhm,
[saundra_davis]:when it was going up, but boy, when it started going down, Um, I was getting pretty attached. And so he, when I told him I said, You know, I don't have the stomach. he said, Well, become a financial planner, and I literally had never heard those words before. I never knew what a financial planner was. Had never heard those words. And uh, that's what happened. I mean, I literally. From that moment I went and got a book, and the book said that If you're going to hire a financial planner, hire a c, f, P, or better yet someone who has a master's degree in financial planning. So that's what I did. I got a master's degree of financial landning, and the point was I had my experience and I knew that most of the people I knew, and you know, in the black community, most of the people I knew were similarly situated to me, even if they had good jobs. Even if they had their own business. They were similarly situated to what I was going through, and so for me, becoming a financial planner was going to be my way of not only blazing a new path for myself, but also for my people. And so that was really what brought me there. And so what it did was, Um, shifted how I think about money shifted how I think about it. But I also, really, you know, to to your question about how it affected me, I understand what my beliefs about money are, and I understand how, Uh, the strengths and the weaknesses of what I learned as a child. you know, in the experience that I went through, so that's the. That's a short answer.
[akeiva_ellis]:I, Yeah, similar to to my story until I learned about the field of financial planning. Really, That started making those money moves for myself, right and teaching people what I was learning through Mysters program and financial planning as well. So that'ing similarity there. And so what happened next? You had this wake up call. You went through your program. You got your masters in financial planning. How did we move from Um from there, getting the knowledge to now where you are today.
[saundra_davis]:Well, let me just say so. So I didn't do this until my forties right. So the the folks were, Um, The the folks in the field. Really, Um, didn't have a pathway for me. There was no. There was no pathway for a forty four year old career changer, Um, who was new to the profession with no experience And so I had to create one. Uh, I started in college. I created my own Uh internship. I met a woman whose trading philosophy and planning philosophy was similar to what I was developing, and I say developing 'cause I didn't know what I was doing yet, and um, I, I got her to hire me for twenty bucks an hour for twenty hours a week, and Um. I started learning from her. Um. What I quickly learned, Uh, was that knowing better doesn't mean doing better, And that's how
[akeiva_ellis]:Mhm.
[saundra_davis]:I ended up in financial coaching. That's how I ended up focusing on financial behavior, so I worked uh, uh with other people who. That's what they were about. so doctors bred and Ted Cluns, and um, uh, Ed Jacobsson, and uh, of of course, um, a George Kinder. All of these people were doing really amazing things around what they were calling the softer side of money or financial life planning. And there was still something for me that wasn't reaching my people, And so I became a coach and I started out. The very first thing that I had set up was a financial planning small incubator, a small business incubator, and that was to help people who were similarly situated to me coming into the field, either young professionals or career changers, actually learn how to do financial planning by actually doing financial planning and and doing so with people who were low in moderate income, so, while they were getting their three years experience doing financial planning for moderate income clients, while they were getting their three year C, if P, experience, Um, so that was not funded to the. Degree, that would, that was my. That's my non profit agency. It was not funded to the degree that it needed to be for it to be sustainable. But this was back in two thousand five and six where people just didn't think that folks who didn't have a lot of money needed comprehensive planning. You know, all they needed to do was deal with that budget. Stop buying refrigerators and Jordans, and they would be okay, Right, buy a house and everything
[akeiva_ellis]:right,
[saundra_davis]:would be fine. So Um, my organization didn't begin to thrive until later. Um. so I just started consulting working with small businesses working with the non profit sector. Uh, and although my non profit was kind of on the back burner, Uh, I was helping other non profits built programming and I still do that today. So that's really how it started. Um. And the the biggest factor I think now, excuse me, is that once two thousand eight happened and people started understanding that even programs such as um, uh, first time home buyers programs and housing programs and entrepreneurship programs that if if people didn't understand money, Um, nothing was going to change because back then they were
[akeiva_ellis]:Mhm,
[saundra_davis]:actually helping people into adjustable rate mortgages that they couldn't handle, And so a lot of folks who benefited from those programs benefited for a while until they lost their homes, so I was bringing forward a new Um perspective around what people. Who were experiencing poverty needed to know about money, So back then no one was talking about insurance. Nobody was talking about asset building or state planning, for you know, low income folks, not even middle income folks, Quite frankly, and so there was just this huge failing in our system of personal finance. The only people that were uh, getting that any kind of information were from insurance sales people, and you know I don't, i, not people selling product, But the bottom line is having an insurance policy or an investment account is not the same as having any comprehensive financial plan, And so my desire was to ensure that all people had access to a comprehensive financial plan either through Bo pro Boonno support Um, or from people like me who really wanted to serve people like me, And you know all of the financial planners back then said, Oh, you'll. Never make a make a living doing financial planning for poor people. You know, you're never going to be able to make a living doing that and the best, The best way to see me do something is to tell me I can't do it. So so
[akeiva_ellis]:Mhm.
[saundra_davis]:you know I've done it. I've done it and I have multiple. like you mentioned. Uh, my financial position now is a result of multiple things, multiple things. not just the non profit. I get a salary from the non profit, but I have a consulting firm. I'm an executive coach. I own property. I have business interests, so so they certainly did. I make a living. Uh, doing financial planning for poor people. Yes, and um. I built my wealth from doing multiple things.
[akeiva_ellis]:Yes, Mup, Ofcome is is a pattern that we see with a lot of holders and the work that you're doing is such a necessary work as well. I mean you talk about this being years ago. I hear that even today, someone who still relatively fresh in the industry only been here a few years that you can't make money serving poor people. quote, unquote, right, but youve you shown and demonstrated that it can happen and it is definitely necessary. I was talking with someone recently about the kind of client aatars that we get even in our education programs when you're learning financial planning, and how different that is from a lot of people's lived experiences and life experiences. So the work doing is definitely necessary work. and I'm sure appreciated by many many people, so that is awesome. So, now that you've got to the stage where you are at, you have these different streams of income. you've built your wealth to the point where it is. now. what would you say Are some important lessons that you have learned along the way.
[saundra_davis]:Yeah, uh, the first thing is really know yourself, you know, I, uh, I still grapple with my money stuff. you know, I still grapple with some of the things that I learned or didn't learn. Um, And, and having a master's degree certainly doesn't mean that I don't still make money mistakes. And so I think the first thing is knowing yourself and trusting that your knowledge is the first step and that having uh, an objective observer, right, um, a a financial planner that doesn't have a financial planner. Um, you gotta kind of wonder what that's about. Right. So my, my, the person who uh, uh helps me stay in check. Uh is also a c, f, P and a coach and you know she helps me in those areas where I can't see my own blind spots. Uh, so knowing yourself first, getting some professional help from a professional that you can trust and who will be your truth teller, and and really understand, Um, how your behavior either uh, blocks or benefits what your path is. But, but I think probably the most significant thing is that I don't have a dollar amount I'm trying to get to. I have a lifestyle that I want to live, and I know what that lifestyle costs me will cost me not only now, but Sandra at seventy and sound at eighty, and quite possibly sound her at ninety. Right. And so I understand the life that I want to live, and I know what I'm willing to do and what I'm not willing to do to get it.
[akeiva_ellis]:Mhm. Yeah, and you talk a little a little bit about the financial advisor that you' working with now. Lets dig a little bit more into that. So how has your experience been working with different financial professionals? Have you had this one advisor your entire journey, or like, Tell me about that. And if you've also worked with any other professionals, like an accountant or an attorney, And what those experiences have been like? And what you look for when working with financial professionals?
[saundra_davis]:So I certainly have a team right. I certainly have a team. Um, the financial professional that I work with who is my truth teller is someone actually who got me into working as a financial planner in the non profit sector. Uh, she was um, volunteering at A at a small organization here in San Francisco, And she invited me to volunteer, and I started volunteering, and from that we built a uh. a course at Golden Gate, and I was her T. a, um. I. This is after I finished my masters. I was her, T. A. and now I'm the professor right, and so uh it. it had many min benefits. Um. I also have a c. p. a uh, my c. p. A handles most of my audit stuff, Uh, and in guiding me in my organization he he works both for my business, Uh, and my l l C. I have an Inc and an l. l. C, Um, and um. I have, of course insurance providers. Uh, I have an estate planning attorney, Uh, it took me a really long time to do that. Uh, I, I'm I'm never embarrassed by those things because I like for people to know the truth right. I needed a
[akeiva_ellis]:right,
[saundra_davis]:trust for years, years, years, twenty years before. I actually did it. and uh, it's done now, Ya, me, um, but I have
[akeiva_ellis]:yeah,
[saundra_davis]:an, Yeah, I have an attorney. Who who did that? Um, I have a bookkeeper for my business now, Um, And so she helps to make sure that we're tracking month to month, um, uh, for the non profit agency And so Yeah, I have a team. and while I'm still the quarterback, Um, uh, my, my coach is always in my ear right.
[akeiva_ellis]:Mhm,
[saundra_davis]:so so so we've got. Uh, We've got a a pretty deep connection. I still struggle with budgeting. You know, I have a really hard time because Uh, number one. I just don't like it of Uh, number two. I like to do what I like to do when I like to do it, so I've had to actually um, put in a a a fale safes for myself. so uh it for my emergency accounts for my investment accounts, Uh, for my tax accounts. Since I have an l l c, I've got to make sure that I'm covering those things, so my my c f p helps me do those things. I've been with the same one for twenty years because I've trusted from the beginning she was the person when I didn't have two nickels to rub together and I didn't right. when I didn't have two nickels to rub together. When I had to take out a home equity line of credit on my condo in order to put myself through college. She was the one who was saying Okay that make these moves as I was learning and as I was becoming a financial planner myself, so yes, I'm still with her. No, uh, I have mentored and been mentored by many other financial planners. Uh, Louis Badahas, Uh, took a very similar journey to me. Uh, So he has been a mentor. Daveysky, and Ales, I. a Lisa booe have been mentors to me. Um. So there have been a lot of folks who I have been influenced by in in my work, But as far as who I work with Uh, that's remained the same. My c p. a Uh, has been my c, P. A. Since before I had two niickels to rope together. So um, but, but newest to the team is the attorney.
[akeiva_ellis]:Aese. And would you say that that really influenced your decision as to who you would work with That they would have kind of taken a chance for laxing. Have a better term on you when you. we know before you got to the level of wealth that you have today, Did that influence your decision at all, and what other values you think are important that you look for when seeking to work with a financial professional of any kind?
[saundra_davis]:I think now that you mention it, Yes, I don't know that I thought about that until you just said it. that them being willing to, and you're right taking a chance. Because when I first became a planner, Um, my very first client, my second client. Actually, Um, I returned his call. It was a prospect. I returned his call and he said. Oh, thank you so much. Thank you so much for calling me and I was like, Okay, who? Who have you been talking to That doesn't show you the courtesy of returning your call. You
[akeiva_ellis]:Mhm,
[saundra_davis]:know he. he was. You know. Uh, a, a guy who only made a only made a hundred and twenty five thousand, and this was back in two thousand five, six. Um, but that's part of why I do what I do, because so many financial planners will only work with you if you've got multi millions in investable assets, and there was just no one who was talking to folks who made you know a hundred k year or two hundred k year. And and so I I guess it guesss that's probably true that I continue to work with those people because they were there when I didn't have a lot. Um, and and I would say it even helped me grow what I have. Um, uh, but I, I think that the values of people are not their money, right, Um, they worked with
[akeiva_ellis]:Yeah,
[saundra_davis]:me as the human that I am, and the promise that I held for the work that I cared about, not ever for the money they would make off of what I do. And and so I think that Uh, that's been a big part. So, when you, when you ask about the values it it is that that core value of I, I care about the person that I'm working with and I can be an objective observer for them. Because even though we're close and we have these really tight relationship ships, I don't want them to tell me what they think. I want to hear. you know. I want them to be uh, that accountability partner. That will say you know Saandra. That's not. That's not a smart move. Uh, even if it's something that I'm uh, strongly aligned with, I want them to be my truth teller. so for me those are the core values, Uh that they know their stuff, Uh that they take a coaching approach where not not only because I, I have the masters, but that they would do that with anyone, trusting and respecting that
[akeiva_ellis]:right.
[saundra_davis]:I'm the expert in my own life. you know, they might you know, know all the money stuff. I know a lot of the money stuff myself, and I also know that knowing better doesn't mean doing better, but I can't do better if I don't know better. so they really do support me in that way. So yeah, that's why I stick with them. and and they're cool people. so there's that
[akeiva_ellis]:yeah, definitely get to work with cool people. You who you can trust to manage your affairs. And so how do you think that that translate? You talked about your state planing attorney being the the newest kind of addition to your financial team. So how did you discern those values within that person before hiring them?
[saundra_davis]:yeah, Th. And that was a tough one to be honest, Because she didn't really. Um, she kind of bumped up against something that I thought I wanted and I, I wasn't fond of that, you know, Um, I wanted. I wanted a trust that she didn't think was right for me. The thing that I wanted. she didn't think was right for me, and she kind of flat out say she wasn't going to do it. It's like okay, then, um, right, and so,
[akeiva_ellis]:Yeah,
[saundra_davis]:um, So the value that I appreciated was that she was looking out for me in ways that I wasn't. Um. And when I told her what my priorities were, she made sure my priorities were covered, so I interviewed her first. First of all, she was referred, she was referred by my financial planner, and when I had my inter introductory meeting with her, that's when you know. Sh, you know we, we kinda rubbed up against each other. You know a couple of strong personalities and then uh, it just became very clear that I needed a strong personality in that seat, and uh, she would not allow me to do what I wanted when it wasn't what I needed, and uh, and Im sure I could have left her and gone somewhere else, But but I appreciated that and she didn't ignore that I had a core value that needed to be addressed even though it couldn't be addressed in the way that I thought right. So that's why I mean yet. Did I take a state planning like everybody else with a master? Sure, but I'm not an estate planner. and so she knows things that I know a little bit about. But she's actually an attorney right, And so she
[akeiva_ellis]:three,
[saundra_davis]:made sure that I didn't harm myself and that I didn't um put myself in a position where I wasn't meeting my goal. So those were really the the core values. She was direct. She was honest, Um, she cared about what I cared about, and she took the time to make sure, she also the way she presented her materials and paperwork, and everything was unlike anything I've ever seen in a professional. Even financial planners, where she, she, you know, were doing the document signing and everything. So I had a full set of the documents that I was going to take with me and she had all of these tabs. she said. Now, A lot of this is legal ease. You may or may not read that, but this sheep. So she gave me a one sheet that, just like Bam, all of the details, everything that I really needed to know and where to find more of the detail. If I wanted more of the De, and that blew me away. I had never seen anybody do that. I've seen financial planners do your executive summary. those kinds of things, but this was superior to anything that I had ever seen Uh, anybody do, whether delivering a plan or an estate plan, So it was pretty awes, pretty awesome.
[akeiva_ellis]:Yeah, that sounds awesome. It sounds like everybody kind of needs somebody like that in their corner who is going to challenge them every once in a while. Right, but at the end of the day you know that they, they've got. You may not look exactly how you want it to be, but they they' making sure you're achieving your goals at the end of the day. Are there any other Imp qualities or even demographic factors that you look for in financial planners, or are you or finance professionals in general, or are you open to anyone who basically has the values that you have or that you're seeking?
[saundra_davis]:Yeah, yeah, So so I buy black right? So I buy black whenever I can. um, uh, win. the person's are right fit. Um. And and that's a core value that I have. Um. and I make. no. uh, I. I don't hide that I don't now.
[akeiva_ellis]:Mhm,
[saundra_davis]:not all of my advisers are black, but my first choice is always to seek out about a black professional. Um, and I think that that's just really important because there's so many times that uh, black professionals don't even get a fair shot at business right, so I have to do whatever
[akeiva_ellis]:right,
[saundra_davis]:I can do to make sure that I, I'm I'm doing that. Um, So that's a? That's a big piece. Um, with the demographic piece I, you know, like I said for me, I try to start with black folks, and then uh. I, I won't say always women. but often you know, uh, often,
[akeiva_ellis]:Mhm,
[saundra_davis]:uh, uh, black people women in general, Um, I do try to make sure that Uh, if someone is starting up and and trying to build their build their client base that they get a shot. You know, Um, so there are some times that I might hire someone who has less than five years experience because I think that, I mean, how do you get experience if nobody's giving you shot. You know,
[akeiva_ellis]:right, exactly, we've all been there,
[saundra_davis]:so so I pay attention. Yeah, yeah, well, you know, for me's a little different because I was already gray. So for folks who are young young folks, enter in the profession you know often, you know, particularly if you look younger than you are, it's a challenge. you know. I didn't really have that 'cause I was already older, Um. But I, I do pay attention to those things. Uh, No, I will not let it drive my decision. Uh, but I certainly make sure that any time I'm hiring quite frankly for anything, Um, whether it's my executive assistant. no matter what, I'm always going to look first in my own community. Um, and even what I shop, I don't shop where my people don't work. So that's just you know. that's just a core value. Um, uh, other things are, Uh, I, I don't really care to work with someone who's more focused on the dollars in the person, and I know I said that before, but I think that that's really p. uh, uh, important. Because if they haven't bothered to know who I am, I, if someone calls me and says I have the perfect product for you, but they don't know anything about me. they can't serve me, because
[akeiva_ellis]:Mhm, Mhm,
[saundra_davis]:they, they have no idea what the perfect product for me is, And so uh, that's a big. That's a big factor. Really understanding who I am. What my goals are. Uh, and I don't mean just from a lip service place. I don't mean you know you. You took a class on client communication. And and now you think you can understand me? Um. I, I need to see the evidence that you understand me. Um, I need to make sure that if I say to you that I am going to make sure that I support my mom financially that you're not trying to tell me how I'm mortgaging my retirement to do something that is a core value to me. So if you don't understand that about me, Um, I see that happens a lot with a lot of financial planners. They will miss that. Uh, people have core values around education for their children, or care for the elders, or Um, you know, and sometimes they will not prioritize their own financial well beinge in order to do things for family members, and I think that that's a mistake. Now. Certainly we want that truth. you know. okay, I hear, I hear that you really want to put your child through college and this is the impact that it's go to have. What does that mean for you? What do you want to do about this? You know, but to say, I mean, I've heard some financial planners just say horrible things to their clients. Uh, who had a value system that they didn't agree with, particularly around Uh, spiritual practices and tithing, and and things like that. And in the black community, you just you can't come at somebody like that. You know,
[akeiva_ellis]:Mhm,
[saundra_davis]:you can't come at somebody like that, you you have to understand. So if I'm working with a client and I see that there's a ten percent gap between what they earn and what they what they spend, I'm not going to say. Well, you know, if you stop tying, you can meet. you know. no, I'm going to say. so hey, look, there's a. There's a gap here. What adjustments would you like to make? What adjustments are you
[akeiva_ellis]:right,
[saundra_davis]:willing to make and they decide they decide. I would never assume that I could tell a client what adjustments they should make in their budget or how they spend their resources. Um. and I think many planners make that mistake. Um. Many counselors of financial counselors make that mistake, and I do think it's a mistake. So I think that when advisers are, are uh, working with with people of color, or if they are not a of the culture that they're working with, really take the time to understand what people care most about. So I'm sorry, I'm like the queen
[akeiva_ellis]:Yeah,
[saundra_davis]:of the long answer. Okay, Go ahead.
[akeiva_ellis]:now I'm loving. I'm sitting here is quiet. as head, get all in is silken at all. land. This this is wonderful. So what else would you say that financial services professionals should know when working or seeking to work with black clients, and especially wealthy black clients, as well, if there iss any nuances to that that you' like to share?
[saundra_davis]:Yeah, I think, don't make assumptions. you know. I mean one of the one of the things that I am grateful for is my travel. I. I. I didn't start traveling until I was older, and in this country, uh, there's a lot of comments about how black folks wear our wealth, right we? You know, we get the car. We get how you know. and when I was in Uh, in Egypt, and I saw how the the kings and queens adorned themselves and I saw how, Um, just culturally w. We, we come from people, our ancestors took care of community, you know we, we, we did those things. and while so much of that was uh, very deliberately stripped, it is not lost. and a lot of times in the black community we have ways of being and things that we do that we might not fully understand. And when we assume that using a European approach to how we manage money or how we manage resources is our way or our pathway to success, I think that's dangerous because I think we lose a lot of who we are and a lot of how we survived Enslavem, and I, so I think that that advisers, whether whether we are uh, black folks serving black folks or other folks serving black folks, need to understand, Um, number one, we evolve Uh, e, Even you know in in our wealth building journey what we cared about in the beginning. May not be what we care about as we reach Uh, middle or the end right, And and so like what I care about today is so different than what I cared about twenty years ago. and so really, making sure that we understand what that is. A younger professionals. Make sure that Uh, you understand what, Uh, your elders. if you're working with elder clients that you understand what they care about. Um, it. it's not always the money. you know. Uh, I was reading. I, I can't remember whose quote. it was. I think I think it was Sigmund Freud. He was asked if he preferred to work with wealthy clients or poor clients, and he said I'd rather work with wealthy clients because they know that money doesn't solve everything. And I think you know. I mean that's what's real. Money doesn't solve everything. And so I think that what advisers should know is to find out what does money solve for that person, And and what does it cost right, Uh, Because when we can do that, when we can be present with people in that way, Uh, we can truly serve them and what it means for them to be free. What did? What does it really mean to be free? If freedom is their core value? So I think that's the main thing. Uh, be careful about assumptions. be careful about trying to become competent in someone else's life. Um, uh, be curious. be curious about their life. I hear what they have to say, Uh, and then govern yourself accordingly. My mamma used to say that all the time.
[akeiva_ellis]:I love it. love it. I love it. And so, in your opinion, as we get to the end here, what can the financial services industry do? What can we, These advisers to do what other financial professionals doe to help close the racial wealth, Ga,
[saundra_davis]:Yeah, so this is a big one and while I'm glad everyone is talking about it, Uh, they're talking about it as though often it is talked about as though there's going to be one thing that happens. Um, there are four levels of racism, There's uh, the structural, right, the societal, the institutional, Uh, the interpersonal and the Um. What is the word here? they internalized Thank you, the internalized and the structure of wealth in this country and how wealth is passed, Like, and let me give you a really concrete example. If financial planners said in mass that one of the things that we could do is we could match the asset means test, and anybody who doesn't know what that is, go look it up. I'm not going to tell you. Go look it up. If if we matched the asset means test to the gift tax exclusion, we would change things. We would change things for people who are uh, experiencing poverty, and that's not only black people, that's all people right. Um, If we um, really understood and made sure that when things like the Five twenty Nine plan, or or other Uh instruments that are designed for the wealthy, Uh truly benefit people who are in the lower and middle income brackets, Um, but see that's going to have to come from our profession. Our profession is going to have to say as a society that tax code needs to be better right now. only the non profit sector is doing that right. That's going to have to come from the for profit sector. And and until financial planners care, um it, it's going to be really hard to push that type of agenda. Um, The the other thing is that institutional right in our institutions, Um, I teach at Golden Gate, I teach at. One of the reasons I started teaching at other schools is because you know often I'm the only black person in my class. My, I don't have like students right, and of course you can go to a a a K state or a Texas Tech or some other places, and you might see some more students. But that's because of where they're located. Um, Um, but you know a Golden Gate is a of one hundred percent online class. It's expensive. No, they've got a lot of great Uh scholarships now that didn't exist before. but that's because the chair of the department now is making a really concerted effort to make sure that there can be more equity and inclusion in that program. So make sure that that the programs are available. I've been hearing some conversation about reducing Um. The the requirement for the c, f, P, like to get rid of the college, uh, uh, college
[akeiva_ellis]:The Bachelor did a great requirement. Mhm,
[saundra_davis]:requirement. Yeah, yeah, I'm I'm not sure that that as a profession we want to lower the standard. You know if we're if we're saying that you know, we're in the same field with a c, p A and an estate planning attorney. And I mean would they would a C, P, A be able to be a C, P. A without an accounting degree? Would an attorney be able to be an attorney without a a law degree? You know? And so I just think we should be careful. and I think it's unfortunate that we link that to blackness, Because that's just not true. That's just not true. And so black folks have degrees. Black folks have bachelors degrees. Black folks have master's degrees and doctorates Right. And so I just don't think that that's a wise decision. And then when we get into the interpersonal, Um, uh, you know, right now we know that there's the conversation around more diversity in firms. The thing that frustrates me about our profession is that whole notion that you have to have a business case to hire black folks. Do you have to have a business case to hire anybody else? Do you
[akeiva_ellis]:Mhm, Mhm,
[saundra_davis]:make a business case to hire white women? Do you make a business case to hire anybody except us, And uh you might be able to tell I have some strong feelings about that, um,
[akeiva_ellis]:Yes, as do i,
[saundra_davis]:E.
[akeiva_ellis]:but this is not is not about me. it is about you today.
[saundra_davis]:And then finally that internalized peace. Ah, this is. this is dangerous for us. because as black people, when we have lived in a country that for so long has told us we're not enough and we do things like say well, you know, you gotta be twice as good to get. Have as much when we do those things, we harm ourselves, and we should not harm ourselves, even when other people are harming us, And so we have to look at those parts of us that believe the lie and heal that part right. If if
[akeiva_ellis]:Yes,
[saundra_davis]:if we cannot make a way in another person's situation, you know other firms, big firms, whatever, make your own way, make your own way, and we can make our own way, and we can support each other What Dana Wilson is doing with Chip right now. All of you know there's so much going on what Domine Hinderson is doing. There's so much that's going on that we can do this. We have made something out of nothingh, for the entire time we have been in this country, and there's nothing to keep us from doing it in this space, And it might mean that we have to uh, do it by ourselves and for ourselves. And that's o. Okay. Everybody always comes around. You know everybody
[akeiva_ellis]:Mhm,
[saundra_davis]:always comes around. Uh of you know that their. there's no shortage of uh, uh. there's no shortage of examples of what happens when black people lead. Ah, and it's not to negate that you know we're all people, but the fact is we've had to overcome obstacles that are unique to us, and when we do great things happen, great things happen. So as far as the financial services industry is going to take society at large, it's go to ha. it's going to take doing research on wealthy black folks. All of the research about black mol, I won't say. all but much of the research about black people and money is about people in poverty. Very little around black people in wealth. Um, you know, Uh, we're going to have to do the things that can bridge the gap. a universal basic income. If financial planners could find it in their hearts to care about people who don't have any money, and look into the real impact of universal basic income. We can make a difference. Um, and so I'll stop there.
[akeiva_ellis]:Ra, this has been amazing and please, before we go tell our listeners where they can keep up with you.
[saundra_davis]:Yeah, so I'm like all over the place. Um, so I am.
[akeiva_ellis]:I know,
[saundra_davis]:I know, right, Um, So again I teach the financial fitness coach certification program. You can find out about that at Sage Financial Solutions Dot Org. Remember where non profits of Dot Org, Um, I'm on instigram at Sage Dot money, Um. Twitters, Sage Money, and Facebook is Sage Money, and I'm also unlinked in Saundra Davison, I'm pretty easy to find there as well,
[akeiva_ellis]:so thank you so much for joining me today, Sara. this has been. This has been amazing.
[saundra_davis]:thank you. I'm glad to be here.
